< For Jada Pinkett Smith, it's all lessons, not regrets -

TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. Jada Pinkett Smith's new memoir begins at the top of a mountain, suicidal and in search of healing. Yes, as a successful film and television star, Jada Pinkett Smith had experienced success beyond her wildest dreams. But what it took to get there - growing up fast and reckless in Baltimore, Md., suppressing past traumas - she never really saw herself living past 40.

In her new memoir, "Worthy," Pinkett Smith contends with the way she coped in life, growing up with parents who struggled with drug addiction, and the choices she made to survive. She takes us through her career and the inner workings of Hollywood as a young Black actress in the '90s in 2000. And she shares new details for the first time on what she calls a highly misunderstood narrative about her marriage to famed actor Will Smith. Jada Pinkett Smith is an actor, singer-songwriter, talk show host and producer. She has appeared in more than 20 movies throughout her career, including "Menace II Society," "Collateral," "The Matrix Reloaded," "Revolutions," and "Resurrections."

Jada Pinkett Smith, Welcome to FRESH AIR.

JADA PINKETT SMITH: Thank you.

MOSLEY: Your book begins in 2012, shortly after your 40th birthday. You're alone and afraid and fragile. And this is new information for those who know your persona because you come across as so strong, so sure in yourself. You had done so well with this keeping-it-moving kind of attitude. What was it about 40 that was the turning point for you?

PINKETT SMITH: I just hit a wall and, I think, not seeing anything in front of me, no future, nothing. It's like I'd never seen my life past 40. But up until that point, I'd been really in a deep struggle with depression. And I really felt a lot of shame around that, too, because I felt like how everybody else felt around me, like you have everything, what is wrong with you?

MOSLEY: And when you say you didn't see a future past 40, was it because you didn't even see the life that you had created thus far in your - as something that was attainable? You had no...

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah, it was almost as if, like, I - living fast in Baltimore, right? And just having that kind of youthful idea like, you live fast and burn out fast, right? It's so many people that I came up with that hadn't made it. I always thought I would never make it to 40, right? I never thought - I just never imagined that. And I didn't even recognize that until I had reached 40, that I had had in my mind that, oh, you won't be living long anyway for so many different reasons, right?

MOSLEY: You mentioned in the book how, really, in your early 20s, you had a breakdown. You got on Prozac...

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...For a moment. But you still kind of had this keep-it-moving...

PINKETT SMITH: Moving.

MOSLEY: ...Attitude, kind of like, OK, I feel better. I'm going to move on from this. You stopped taking Prozac.

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: That's kind of part of it. You knew you suffered from depression.

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: But you really didn't understand what that meant.

PINKETT SMITH: You know, we didn't have - at that particular point in time, we really didn't have a lot of information around mental health. So if somebody's telling me I'm depressed, I'm like, OK.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

PINKETT SMITH: Right. You know, like, OK, I get that. So that means that I'm going to be depressed for a little while, and then I'm going to be OK.

MOSLEY: Like it's a temporary state.

PINKETT SMITH: Right, it's a temporary state, right? I didn't have real understanding on what that meant. So once I got on Prozac, I was feeling better. And then I met Will. And then Will became my new Prozac.

MOSLEY: Will became your new Prozac.

PINKETT SMITH: Absolutely.

MOSLEY: Right.

PINKETT SMITH: You know, he - you know the relationship and the - you know, it was the whirlwind - like, just this romantic whirlwind of a storybook relationship. And it made me believe that I was OK, I found the thing.

MOSLEY: Yeah. You were also so young.

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: I guess I didn't realize that until I read it in the book. You were, like, 23.

PINKETT SMITH: I was Willow's age.

MOSLEY: Your daughter Willow.

PINKETT SMITH: Yes.

MOSLEY: The age that she is now.

PINKETT SMITH: The age that she is now is when (laughter) I started my relationship with Will. And it makes me laugh because I look at Willow, and of course, she's so mature in so many ways. But she's so young.

MOSLEY: Yeah, yeah.

PINKETT SMITH: She's a baby.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

PINKETT SMITH: You know?

MOSLEY: The thing about you and Will's relationship is you lived it so publicly.

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: And it seemed like we knew the entire story just by the way you all showcased it...

PINKETT SMITH: Right.

MOSLEY: ...On television shows and interviews. So it really has come as a surprise in the book when you make the revelation that you all haven't been together for seven years.

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: You've been separated for seven years.

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: Why did you wait till now to tell us that?

PINKETT SMITH: Oh, I really needed to work through a lot of anger and resentment. You know, I...

MOSLEY: Towards him?

PINKETT SMITH: Towards him, towards me feeling like I never got the relationship I wanted, you know? Like, I helped you do everything you wanted to do, but I couldn't get the relationship. I couldn't make this masterpiece of connection between us, right? And I did not - because it's funny about Will and I. Even if the marriage wasn't working, there was still this level of friendship and deep connection between us, right?

And so you have these two things going on at once. It's like, OK, trying to have you as my husband is freaking impossible. And then, at the same time, there's this thing that we have that we can just - it's almost like we were made to deal with each other's [expletive]. (Laughter) You know what I mean? It's like we're kind of assigned to each other, if that makes any sense, in regards to working through our traumas. It's like we really know how to hold space for that. And so when I - when we decided to go our separate ways, I realized I really needed some time to figure me out. And I didn't want to make a bloodbath of our separation.

MOSLEY: The thing about it, though, is that there were little hints, little inklings, over the last few years. On your show "Red Table Talk"...

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: You guys sat down with each other to talk about an entanglement...

PINKETT SMITH: Right.

MOSLEY: A relationship that you had had with another person during a separation.

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: But you stopped short of saying, but we're still separated. I just want to go back, though, to what you were saying about you couldn't have the marriage that you wanted. Had it always been that way or was there a moment in time when it became clear that you two both wanted different things?

PINKETT SMITH: I think that, yes, we two wanted - we both wanted different things. But the things that we weren't - the things that we wanted weren't reasonable. We both came into our relationship with really romanticized, idealized concepts - right? - going in different directions.

MOSLEY: Oh, give me an example of what you mean by that.

PINKETT SMITH: So Will really believed that, OK, if I make it big in this world, I can provide everything for you and the family. And for him, that is the biggest love language - right? - to have...

MOSLEY: To protect and provide.

PINKETT SMITH: Right, protect and provide.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

PINKETT SMITH: Right? That was his biggest love language. And my whole thing was like, but no, no, no. We need - like, you and I - we got to have this connection. Like, all of that is taking you away from this masterpiece of connection I'm trying to create, right? So we both had really false ideas. And it's - now, this is a really universal problem, right? It's not unique.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

PINKETT SMITH: Right? And so, you know, it - we both had these, like, really false ideas that we - and we're both very strong-willed. And so really trying to pull at each other constantly - that's where that power struggle comes in. No, my way is the right way. No, my way is the right way. You know, you don't have this roof over your head, there's no place to love - you know, like, all of that, right? And, you know, we just refused to really look at ourselves because at the end of the day, what I had come to realize in this time of separation is that there was no masterpiece of connection to make without me having a relationship with myself. I couldn't look to Will to be the substitute...

MOSLEY: Yeah.

PINKETT SMITH: ...For my relationship to myself. An intimate relationship with myself.

MOSLEY: Yeah. Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jada Pinkett Smith. She's written a new memoir called "Worthy," which chronicles her life growing up in Baltimore, her career in Hollywood, raising children and her marriage to famed actor Will Smith. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF NAOMI MOON SIEGEL'S "IT'S NOT SAFE")

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. And today we're talking to actor, producer, musician, talk show host and author Jada Pinkett Smith. She's written a new memoir titled "Worthy." Pinkett Smith has appeared on television and more than 20 movies throughout her career, including "Menace II Society," "Lowdown Dirty Shame," "Collateral" and the remake of "The Nutty Professor." She also hosted for five years the Daytime Emmy Award-winning show on Facebook "Red Table Talk."

You all were just such the representation of Black love.

PINKETT SMITH: Right.

MOSLEY: And you were on the Oprah show, I remember, and you had your two young children there.

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: And I think Willow came out with a purse.

PINKETT SMITH: Yes, and her two - yeah, two teeth were missing.

MOSLEY: But you all seem to exemplify, like, the possibilities.

PINKETT SMITH: Absolutely.

MOSLEY: And you seem so sure about your love and your connection. Do you, in hindsight, regret those times?

PINKETT SMITH: Oh, absolutely not.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

PINKETT SMITH: No.

MOSLEY: Because it was true at the time.

PINKETT SMITH: It's true still today. It was true at the time, and it is today, right? And it's looking for the authentic construct, the authentic paradigm, right? And it's like, at that particular point in time, of course, we had our issues. But we love each other.

MOSLEY: Yeah. And you were still striving at that time. Yeah.

PINKETT SMITH: And we were still striving. And even today - listen. The relationship that - this new path that Will and I are on is not probably going to be that which is in the ideal.

MOSLEY: What do you mean by that?

PINKETT SMITH: Meaning, like, maybe I will still keep my house - you know, live separate. I don't know yet - right? - because we are still in that process of, like, healing because since what happened at the Oscars - that actually brought us closer.

MOSLEY: OK, let's talk about it - the infamous slap at the 94th Academy Award ceremony. You devote an entire chapter to it in the book. You call it "The Holy Joke, The Holy Slap And The Holy Lessons."

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: You have alopecia. And Chris Rock made a joke about your look, calling you GI Jane. And Will walked on the stage and slapped Chris, and you initially thought you were seeing a bit.

PINKETT SMITH: I thought I was seeing a skit because he had been going back and forth backstage all night.

MOSLEY: From being in the audience to going backstage.

PINKETT SMITH: To going backstage. Yeah. And when he got up, I was like - because, you know, all night, people were doing, like, really this kind of, like, interesting - people getting up on stage. It was, you know, people - you know, some of the hosts talking to the audience members or what have you. It's, like, this, you know, back-and-forth with people, which was different - hadn't been quite like that because the stage was really low. So when he got up and walked on stage, I thought to myself, did he not tell me that he saw Chris backstage? - because even how Chris reacted Will we walked onstage was like, oh, here's Mr. Smith. I was like, oh, this is interesting, right? He didn't say anything to me. And then when he swung and Chris slipped the shot, from my point of view...

MOSLEY: Vantage point, you thought he slipped the shot.

PINKETT SMITH: Slipped the shot.

MOSLEY: Like, he...

PINKETT SMITH: Like, he...

MOSLEY: ...Ducked back.

PINKETT SMITH: ...Ducked back, and there was no contact made because I didn't see Will make contact. And Chris was still standing. You got to understand I've seen Will knock professional fighters down.

MOSLEY: Right. He played Muhammad Ali.

PINKETT SMITH: He played Muhammad Ali. And he's a heavy hitter, OK? And so I was like, there was no - like, no blood. Chris is still standing. There's no swelling. They're - like, I'm like, oh, this is interesting. And then when he turned around and he started walking back, I was like, something - no. This is not a skit. Something's not right.

MOSLEY: First off, before we even go there on when you realize what happened, you all were separated at the time. So how did it even come to be that you had gone with him to the Academy Awards?

PINKETT SMITH: So once he finished "Emancipation"...

MOSLEY: The movie.

PINKETT SMITH: ...The movie - once he finished the movie, a lot of stuff started coming up for Will. A lot of stuff came up for him. It was a very challenging movie to shoot.

MOSLEY: It's about slavery.

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

PINKETT SMITH: It was really challenging. And he asked me to get into some therapeutic spaces with him. And at first, I was a little hesitant. And then I was like, nah, this is about healing because at that particular point in time - let me say we've gone back and forth over and over again about, no, no, we're getting a divorce. No - you know, just, like, this back-and-forth with me. And so when he asked me, I said, OK. And so we started doing some really deep work.

MOSLEY: Deep therapy?

PINKETT SMITH: Really deep stuff, like, in ways that we had never.

MOSLEY: Like what, like talk therapy? Or...

PINKETT SMITH: It was talk therapy. We did some plant medicine together. We did a whole lot of different modalities of therapy. And it was deep, right? And we were really, like, making some really deep headway. And so when he got nominated, he was like, there's nobody else I want to...

MOSLEY: Experience this moment with.

PINKETT SMITH: ...Experience this moment with. Would you be willing to be by my side during this time? I was like, absolutely, you know, because no matter what, Will and I are always family. That's not going to change ever, right? And so I said, yes, I will stand next to you, you know? I will be there with you because, of course, I want to experience this with you, too, you know?

MOSLEY: Yeah.

PINKETT SMITH: And - but I was very aware of what he was dealing with behind the scenes, which nobody else, you know, was really privy to.

MOSLEY: A lot of what he was dealing with within therapy with you. You had learned and you knew what he was dealing with. Why do you think he did that? Why did he hit Chris Rock?

PINKETT SMITH: I got to leave that for Will, you know? That's his story to tell. You know, it's his journey. And I think that he will, you know, but that's his story.

MOSLEY: What have you come to about it?

PINKETT SMITH: Well, it was really interesting. You know, it was really - it was quite a social study for me in regards to all the assumptions that were made. And...

MOSLEY: Because, somehow, you were vilified in all of this.

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah, yeah. It's very interesting, you know, (laughter) how, you know, a woman who is seemingly so irrelevant can be so culpable at the same time, you know? It's like...

MOSLEY: What do you mean by irrelevant?

PINKETT SMITH: So that's one of the lines that I have in the book. It's like, you know, people love to make Black women feel that they don't matter, you know what I'm saying? And just kind of that social attitude that, you know, women, Black women, are the least protected and seemingly the least relevant - and of course, we're proving that to be completely wrong these days with what's happening, you know? But that I could somehow, by the movement of my eyes, make Will do something against his will or make him do something at all...

MOSLEY: Because that had been a narrative out there, that somehow you gave Will a look...

PINKETT SMITH: Look.

MOSLEY: And then he went up onstage.

PINKETT SMITH: (Laughter) And did what he did. And I was like, you know - I was like, OK. It's like, listen, just like I said in the book, if I could have made Will do anything...

(LAUGHTER)

PINKETT SMITH: You know, these last three decades, OK, would have looked very different, OK? So you know - but I also - you know, that was part of my curriculum of really seeing and really learning how to have compassion for all of it, and embrace it all and accept it all and know who I am and not allow other people's opinions and other people's judgment infringe upon my self-worth.

MOSLEY: Yeah. Has it been reconciled? I mean, I know you can't speak on behalf of Will, but he's given statements since then and he's back out. He was promoting "Emancipation" after that. But do you feel like - I don't know the right question for it, but do you feel like he's in a good place now?

PINKETT SMITH: I do, you know? And I feel like he's going to have a lot to offer and a lot to share - yeah, I really do - and, I think, in a helpful way, right? He's had a lot of self-discovery.

MOSLEY: Have you decided if you all will divorce?

PINKETT SMITH: Oh, no, we're not divorcing (laughter).

MOSLEY: How come?

PINKETT SMITH: I love him. He loves me. We just got to figure it out, and we're in the process of doing that.

MOSLEY: Our guest today is actor, producer and author Jada Pinkett Smith. She's written a new memoir titled "Worthy." We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF DAVID FRIEDMAN'S "LUNCH WITH PANCHO VILLA")

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley, and my guest today is Jada Pinkett Smith. Her new memoir, "Worthy," takes the reader through her life growing up in Baltimore, her career as an actor, singer-songwriter, talk show host and producer, as well as her marriage to famed actor Will Smith. Jada Pinkett Smith has appeared in more than 20 movies throughout her career, and her talk show "Red Table Talk," which ran on Facebook for five years, received a Daytime Emmy Award.

So, Jada, you've lived a public life for so long. It was really interesting for me to read in the book about your life before Hollywood.

PINKETT SMITH: (Laughter).

MOSLEY: Because we know so much about what's happened, you know, throughout your career. It also really sets the stage for where you were when you were 40 years old, when you had this crisis, you know?

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: So you grew up in Baltimore. Your grandparents were a big part of your life. Your parents, Adrienne Banfield and Robsol Pinkett, were high school sweethearts and married shortly after your mother got pregnant with you at 17. Your mother has been in recovery for quite a while. We learned about that on "Red Table Talk." But when you were growing up, you describe her as a full-blown, high-functioning heroin addict who was holding it all together. What did that look like?

PINKETT SMITH: My mother was, at one point, a head nurse at a woman's clinic - OK? - and was deep in her heroin addiction.

MOSLEY: And how old were you about that time?

PINKETT SMITH: Sixteen.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

PINKETT SMITH: You know. And you would see my mother, and she would be really well put together - I mean, sharp, beautiful. You know, you wouldn't really recognize her level of dysfunction unless you were inside her world.

MOSLEY: And you were inside her world.

PINKETT SMITH: I was inside her world. But on the outside - never know.

MOSLEY: You, after watching her, said to yourself, what is going to be my hustle?

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

MOSLEY: You knew, like, you were creative. You liked lots of things. You were an actor. You were going to this wonderful school where you were acting and auditioning for things, but you also were selling drugs. And I want you to paint a picture for us of how selling drugs would seem like a viable option for you at that age.

PINKETT SMITH: Oh, yeah, because, you know, in our environment, we didn't have doctors, lawyers, you know, professionals, you know, that were in our neighborhoods - right? - that were like, that's how you do it. Like, that person over there - we had hustlers. So...

MOSLEY: They were the role models.

PINKETT SMITH: They were the role models because they had the cars. They had wads of cash. They had, you know, protection and security. They were loved - all of that, right? And so for me, I was like, I want that. I want it now. And it was something that you could have instantly, right? And so, you know, in my mind at that time, that's what I believed I needed to have power, safety, security, love.

MOSLEY: What were you selling?

PINKETT SMITH: I was selling crack - crack cocaine.

MOSLEY: At one point, you felt like, OK, I'm going to be a queen pin. You were really deep into it.

PINKETT SMITH: I was.

MOSLEY: What did that look like? You were going to school by day, and then what?

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah, going to school by day, sometimes leaving school in the afternoon and making runs and then, you know, come back - like, school, for me, I came and go as I pleased. That was just - (laughter). You know, I mean, thank goodness that the faculty there really saw my potential, and my high school diploma was literally a gift because they were just like, get out of here. Get to North Carolina and do something with yourself.

MOSLEY: Right, because you went on to North Carolina School of the Arts, but did you ever feel conflicted knowing that your parents struggled?

PINKETT SMITH: Never.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

PINKETT SMITH: Never. Because when you - it's - we grew up in a war zone. So here's the deal. Drugs was going to be part of your life, OK? You could use drugs. You could be a drug dealer's girlfriend. You could sell drugs. There was no not having a relationship to drugs, right? And so you just figured out, OK, well, what relationship do you want to drugs, right? And I'm not - of course, when I think back in hindsight, in the mindset, the clarity that I have now, it's just like, what? Like, what is that? And I have remorse for a lot of my activity back then, you know? But at that time, I was so immersed in a different mindset and in a different kind of environment, you know, that there was this level of survival for me, you know? And so survive by any means - you survive by the resources that you think are right there.

MOSLEY: I mean, it was such a pivotal time period for you, graduating high school, this moment before you went to college, because you were making this choice for yourself. Like, am I going to be a queen pin? Am I going to sell drugs to continue to make money 'cause you were making some good money. You were able to have your own car...

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...Do the kind of things you wanted to do. But you had two near-death experiences that kind of got you out of that mindset.

PINKETT SMITH: Well, they were definitely the ones I wrote about, yeah. So...

MOSLEY: You had more that you didn't write about.

PINKETT SMITH: (Laughter) Man, those - yeah. I mean, but it was an everyday thing, you know? That's why...

MOSLEY: It was an everyday thing to almost look death in the eye, yeah.

PINKETT SMITH: Absolutely. And it's so hard for people to understand that that's not from that. You know, a lot of people when they read the book and they go, you know, how did you - like, weren't you afraid? And it's very hard to explain, like, I know that experience seems extreme when you read it, but in relationship to everything that was going on in that world, that's lightweight. It's not extreme. It's not unusual. It's not, like, oh, my God, I can't believe you had two 9 mms to your head. It's just kind of like, oh, I'm glad you made it out of that, shorty. I'm glad.

MOSLEY: In so many ways, I understand what you're saying.

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: But can you describe a little bit more when you say it was a war zone?

PINKETT SMITH: You know, I mean, going to clubs, you knew there was going to be a shootout, but we went anyway. Hands down, there was going to be a shootout. You're going to hit the floor. You're going to be running. Somebody is pulling out a - and you know that. That's entertainment. And you're like, it's cool. You, like - you just ready because you're not going to miss the party. You're going.

MOSLEY: What do you think that is?

PINKETT SMITH: That's - you just develop a certain mindset that is programmed to accept and to accept what you have.

MOSLEY: And also that you just might die because you don't expect to live very long.

PINKETT SMITH: You don't expect to live. So it's like, you're going to sit in a house? It's like, that's part of it. I have friends that were - listen. Funerals - we were going to funerals like barbecues. We were going to funerals like barbecues. And I mean young people my age. I was - that's just what it was. I mean, I can't even tell you the amount of friends that I've lost, you know? I've had so much loss in my life. Some losses were more extreme than others. You know, but when you got that late-night page, you already knew. You know, if your phone was ringing late at night, you already knew.

MOSLEY: That somebody had died.

PINKETT SMITH: Somebody, right? And so, you know, that was just - and I wish that we talked more often about - and I think we are now. You know, we pay a lot of attention to the violence that happens with men. But when I was coming up, so many women, you know, that were - found their demise at the hands of violence. You know, that we don't - I still think we don't talk about it enough, you know?

MOSLEY: It's part of why you hit a wall at 40.

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah. And probably why I also had that breakdown at 2021 because I wasn't allowing myself to deal with any of it. You know, and I didn't allow myself to deal with the level of loss, trauma, all of it.

MOSLEY: Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jada Pinkett Smith. She's written a new memoir called "Worthy," which chronicles her life growing up in Baltimore, her career in Hollywood, raising children and her marriage to famed actor Will Smith. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF AHMAD JAMAL'S "THE LINE")

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. And today we're talking to actor, producer, musician, talk show host and author Jada Pinkett Smith. She's written a new memoir titled "Worthy." Pinkett Smith has appeared on television and more than 20 movies throughout her career, including "Menace II Society," "Low Down Dirty Shame," "Collateral" and the remake of "The Nutty Professor." She also hosted for five years the Daytime Emmy Award-winning show on Facebook "Red Table Talk."

You seem to have this way of knowing what works for you. I just - I think I laughed out loud when I saw that you turned down being the best friend for the hit sitcom "Blossom."

PINKETT SMITH: "Blossom," yeah.

MOSLEY: You were going to be - they offered you that role.

PINKETT SMITH: Yes.

MOSLEY: What made you know that something else was better for you? You turned it down...

PINKETT SMITH: Instinct.

MOSLEY: ...Not having anything else.

PINKETT SMITH: Instinct. That's part of where that street confidence, right? - it was like your instinct - at that time, my instincts were so dialed in. Any environment I went into, the first thing I would do is dial in my instincts, right? And so I just knew. And I just knew first and foremost, I was like, I'm not - like, I can't play a 12-year-old. Like.

MOSLEY: 'Cause how old were you at the time?

PINKETT SMITH: I was 19.

MOSLEY: They wanted you to play...

(LAUGHTER)

PINKETT SMITH: And I was a wild 19. You know what I mean? And I was like, I can't play 12. And I remember my agent at the time, Nancy Rainford - she was like, oh, Jada, opportunities like this don't come by all the time, you know? And I just knew. I was like, Nancy, oh, just ride with me. Ride with me on this. And she did.

MOSLEY: She did.

PINKETT SMITH: She trusted me. And then within two weeks, "Different World."

MOSLEY: "A Different World."

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: Which was a spinoff from "The Cosby Show." You went to audition for a role that was a temporary role on the show. It was just kind of role that was a walk-on in the show. But you met Debbie Allen.

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: She wrote a character based on your life.

PINKETT SMITH: She did - Lena James. And she was like - I went and auditioned for a college student that had contracted HIV. And it was a starring role for one episode. And she - you know, after I did my audition, she said, tell me about you. Where are you from? Tell me about your life. So, you know, we got into this conversation. She was asking me questions. And, you know, and I was like, and I'm going to be the next Debbie Allen. Like, I went to Baltimore School...

MOSLEY: You're in front of Debbie Allen...

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...Saying, I'm going to be the next you.

(LAUGHTER)

PINKETT SMITH: Yes.

MOSLEY: Yeah.

PINKETT SMITH: And she cracked up. And so, you know, when it was all said and done, she said, I'm not going to give you this role. She said, but I'm going to bring you on this show as a series regular.

MOSLEY: That was your big break.

PINKETT SMITH: That was my big break. Yeah.

MOSLEY: You also write, though - I mean, and you touched on this, but the way that you were treated in Hollywood during those early days - you describe it as being kissed on one cheek and then backhanded on the other. What did that look like?

PINKETT SMITH: You know, it was - Blackness was celebrated on screen, but Blackness was not celebrated off screen, right? And so that was one part. And then the other was, you know, I was really rough around the edges, you know? And so there was always something wrong with Jada.

MOSLEY: Like what? Like, you needed to...

PINKETT SMITH: She's too hairy. She's too - you're, you know - she - I would always have to audition.

MOSLEY: You're too hairy.

PINKETT SMITH: I was too hairy. Yeah, I was too hairy.

MOSLEY: Because now you have to - we have to talk about this on NPR. I just have to. Because being hairy in the Black community...

PINKETT SMITH: That's sexy.

MOSLEY: Right.

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: So you came from Baltimore...

PINKETT SMITH: Right.

MOSLEY: ...Thinking like, I'm - I have hair.

PINKETT SMITH: I'm hairy. I got, you know, a little hair on top of my lip. My legs are hairy, you know? My arms are hairy. You know, I'm having - some Black actors are like, never shave your legs. Make sure you never shave your legs. You know what I'm saying? And then, you know, you have the Hollywood community is like, oh, she's so hairy, you know? Wax her immediately, like, so - you know, so I was like, oh, OK, you know? And then it was my hair. It was my attitude. It was the way I talked. I mean, it's just one thing after another, right? And so I just had to figure out how to play the game in a way that wasn't going to steal who I wanted to be.

(SOUNDBITE OF GOMEZ'S "BUENA VISTA")

MOSLEY: This is FRESH AIR. And today we're talking to actor, producer, musician, talk show host and author Jada Pinkett Smith. She's written a new memoir titled "Worthy." Pinkett Smith has appeared on television and more than 20 movies throughout her career, including "Menace II Society," "Low Down Dirty Shame," "Collateral," and the remake of "The Nutty Professor." She also hosted for five years the Daytime Emmy Award-winning show on Facebook, "Red Table Talk."

Jada, one of the most enduring stories about you is that you and the late rapper Tupac Shakur were not just childhood friends. You were thick as thieves.

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah, we were.

MOSLEY: I don't think I really even understood the depth of your friendship until reading this book. He was one of your best friends, and the two of you met during orientation sophomore year at the Baltimore School for the Arts.

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: Can you describe that first meeting?

PINKETT SMITH: He was holding court. Like, he was holding court in the upper left side of the theater that we all assembled in. And I remember coming in. You know, I'm coming in fashionably late. Jada's flashy. You know, she's - I'm here. Jada's here. And he's holding court. And he looks over, and I look to him, and I'm like, oh, who's that peanut-head dude over there? And we catch eyes, and I'm like, OK. And then, you know, I'm Miss Social Butterfly, so I'm going to talk to my people. And then he comes over, and he goes, hi, I'm Tupac and holds out his hand. And I shake his hand. And that was the first time - I was like, oh, man, his hands are so clammy (laughter). And I use - 'cause I would tease him about those hands of his, right? And we were inseparable from there. It was as if we had known each other, as if we knew each other. It was crazy. It was just like...

MOSLEY: Instant.

PINKETT SMITH: Instant - it was instant.

MOSLEY: Little-known fact - he wanted to make a rap - female rap group and have you in it.

PINKETT SMITH: Yes. And he succeeded. He made a - he had me part of the female rap-battle group, and I did one rap battle 'cause I couldn't rap at all, OK? And I did one rap battle. We won, and I was like, that's it. I'm not going to - 'cause he was so hardcore.

MOSLEY: Was it freestyle, or was it...

PINKETT SMITH: No, no, no.

MOSLEY: No, what was it that you guys did?

PINKETT SMITH: He wrote me...

MOSLEY: He wrote it?

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah. He wrote me a rhyme.

MOSLEY: Wow.

PINKETT SMITH: And I found - when I was going through, when I was writing the book, I had to go through, like, all of my letters and what have you. And I still have letters from him, like, from high school. And so I found a rap that he had written for me during that time, and it was awful (laughter).

MOSLEY: It was an awful rap.

PINKETT SMITH: It was terrible. I was like, what? But he probably had to really simplify it because I just couldn't rap, so...

MOSLEY: You know, I mean, by today's standards, when we hear letters, we think, wow, that - I mean, that you only write letters if it's romantic. But back in the day...

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...That's how we communicated, right?

PINKETT SMITH: That's right. We didn't have texts and emails. We had letters.

MOSLEY: Right.

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: Your relationship with Tupac wasn't romantic.

PINKETT SMITH: No.

MOSLEY: Yeah. That's something that is - I mean, I think when people hear a guy and a girl...

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: ...So connected in the way that you guys are, or were - how would you describe it then?

PINKETT SMITH: You know, I think some relationships you just can't really give a title to. That's what I'm starting to realize. You know what I mean? It's like - because it encompasses so much, you know what I mean? It's like he was like a father to me at times. Sometimes he was like a brother, a big brother. Sometimes he was like a little brother. Sometimes he was like a platonic boyfriend. Sometimes he was like, you know, my nemesis. You know? And he was so many things to me.

MOSLEY: When he wrote the song "Dear Mama," which is still as - it's still an anthem for imperfect mothers. We're - all of us are imperfect mothers, really.

PINKETT SMITH: Absolutely.

MOSLEY: But he sent it to you to listen to.

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: And what did you think about it when you first heard it?

PINKETT SMITH: I loved it. I loved it. He had so - he had - he was a little concerned. Yeah.

MOSLEY: About what? Yeah.

PINKETT SMITH: And not concern like oh, but, like, what you think? Because at first, he was like, I wrote this about our moms, you know? And, of course, it was about his mom.

MOSLEY: His mom.

PINKETT SMITH: But...

MOSLEY: And your mom, yeah.

PINKETT SMITH: ...The idea that a mother who's addicted to, you know...

MOSLEY: Substances.

PINKETT SMITH: ...Substances. And he was - he didn't know if he wanted to bring that journey to the - to his music. And I just thought it was so beautiful. It was so honest. But yet it was like this beautiful acceptance, you know, of just - of it, of it.

MOSLEY: Of imperfection...

PINKETT SMITH: Yes.

MOSLEY: ...And love, a mother's love.

PINKETT SMITH: Yes. And I was just like, wow. I was like, Pac - I said, I think your mom is going to love this. And I think this is the best song you've written so far. You know, it's just like I was - I just fell in love with it.

MOSLEY: Do you still feel that when you hear it today?

PINKETT SMITH: I do. I every time I hear "Dear Mama," I remember him calling me. And I visualize the cassette tape.

MOSLEY: Because it was on tape, yeah.

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah, it was on tape. I visualize the cassette tape.

MOSLEY: The last time you all saw each other, you had a fight.

PINKETT SMITH: Yeah.

MOSLEY: It was an argument. You all never spoke again because a year later, he was murdered. It's one of your biggest regrets.

PINKETT SMITH: I don't know if I would call it a regret. It's definitely a big lesson - right? - because everything - I'm always - I don't really have regrets. I can have remorse. Situations can give me big lessons. That was a big one, you know?

MOSLEY: What was the lesson?

PINKETT SMITH: You know, just a lesson around pride and think - taking time for granted and thinking - you know, I really thought Pac was invincible at that time. He had been through so much, right? And he had survived so much already, things that people know, things that people don't know. But he had survived so much. And I never thought in a million years that we would have that argument and that he would be shot and actually die. You know, so I really learned not to allow my pride to keep me from communication and reconciliation, right? And so even now, as morbid as it might seem, like, if I'm in a deep conflict, the first place I go to - if I'm in a deep conflict with somebody, I go, if you were on your deathbed or if this person was on their deathbed, would this moment matter? And most of the time, it's no (laughter) unless I got some real strong pride.

(LAUGHTER)

PINKETT SMITH: You know what I mean? But most of the time, it's no. And that rectifies it right there.

MOSLEY: Yeah. Do you ever think about what your friendship would have evolved to had he not been murdered?

PINKETT SMITH: Oh, yeah. One thing's for sure. I do believe him - he and Will would have been really good friends. I do. I really believe that. I believe they would have been really good friends. They would have had a lot to offer each other, a lot to offer each other. I think he would have adored my children. He really - I think one thing that people don't know about Tupac is that he loved kids.

MOSLEY: He loved kids.

PINKETT SMITH: He loved children. He loved children. And it would have been nice to see, you know, his daughter or his son. Yeah.

MOSLEY: Jada Pinkett Smith, thank you so much for this conversation. And thank you for your book.

PINKETT SMITH: Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it.

MOSLEY: Jada Pinkett Smith's new memoir is titled "Worthy."

On the next FRESH AIR, the legal group that's become the conservative Christian movement's most influential arm. The Alliance for Defending Freedom's victories include overturning Roe v. Wade, and current goals include a nationwide ban on the abortion pill and limits on LGBTQ rights. We'll talk with The New Yorker's David Kirkpatrick. I hope you can join us.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "DEAR MAMA")

TUPAC SHAKUR: (Rapping) You always was committed. A poor single mother on welfare. Tell me how you did it. There's no way I can pay you back. But the plan is to show you that I understand. You are appreciated.

REGGIE GREEN AND SWEET FRANKLIN: (Singing) Lady, don't you know we love ya?

SHAKUR: Dear mama.

GREEN AND FRANKLIN: (Singing) Sweet lady, place no one above ya.

SHAKUR: You are appreciated.

GREEN AND FRANKLIN: (Singing) Sweet lady...

MOSLEY: To keep up with what's on the show and to get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Jacobi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. For Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "DEAR MAMA")

SHAKUR: (Rapping) And there's no way I can pay you back. But my plan is to show you that I understand. You are appreciated.

GREEN AND FRANKLIN: (Singing) Lady, don't you know we love ya?

SHAKUR: And dear mama.

GREEN AND FRANKLIN: (Singing) Sweet lady...

NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.

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